Moriel gets questioned… and we respond…

Now, for my questions. Some essential. Some not essential.

We agree on the Holy Spirit being the Restrainer, but slightly differently. I believe the Spirit is what the world calls our “conscious” – always telling us to avoid or not do evil. I believe this is why the world is plunged into utter lawlessness because the Restrainer is removed, worst even than the lawless days of Noah. He has also been the One who points to the Son, as I see in Psalm 2 (Father speaking, Son speaking, then Spirit saying to “Kiss [worship] the son,” and since it’s the Comforter who glorifies Jesus, He has always glorified the Son.

ESSENTIALS

1. You stated that it’s not plausible for the Holy Spirit to be taken out. But here is my questions on that:
   1. the world is plunged into utter chaos. Lawlessness. The rider on the red horse isn’t just war, but its global civil unrest. Men do not have a “conscious.” Wouldn’t this be a removal of the Holy Spirit who retrains men from doing evil?
   2. in Revelation, we read in the letters, “he that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the Churches.” But later in Revelation, when Tribulation is going on in the earth, all we see is “he that hath and ear, let him hear.” There is no more mention of the Holy Spirit or the Church. Isn’t this significant?
   3. in Revelation, we are also told several times that mankind will not repent. But we know it’s the Churches job not preach the Gospel, and the Spirits job to call men to repentance. But there is neither Gospel nor Repentance during the Tribulation period. In fact, it is an ANGEL who say to not take the mark nor worship the beast. An angel is doing the work of the Church and the Spirit. I ask myself “why?” … if the Church or the Spirit are on the earth. And why doesn’t the angel say “repent” or “turn to Jesus”? The Gospel doesn’t appear to be preached either.
2. A question that no one has ever answer satisfactory when I ask, is, how did the souls of men get IN HEAVEN {before} the FIRST SEAL is even broken? My question is, if there is no Pre-Tribulation Rapture, how did the souls of men, and the 24 Elders (whom I believe to be the 12 Tribal patriarchs and the 12 Disciples, because the Messiah is the Cornerstone that bind BOTH Covenants), get in Heaven if they weren’t Raptured.
3. Do you see the first few seals as being wrath? I do. I see the first as religiosity. Godless religiosity. It just doesn’t make sense to me why the first rider would be a man, but all other riders be things. That’s just not consistent. Plus, I can see the religiosity of this world everywhere in the last 300 years until today. The red rider of war, civil unrest, lawlessness. If a man wants to rape a women, what will stop him? If a man hates another man and wants to kill him, what will stop him … IF the Restrainer who restrains men from evil is gone … and no one even repents … each being the activity of the Holy Spirit. Isn’t this wrath? Then the high inflation. Desperate people do desperate things. And a loaf of bread for a days wage will make millions pretty desperate. Neighbors killing neighbors for a can of food. Fathers abandoning their families just to feed themselves. Women selling their bodies. Do you see wrath in this? Then of course, all the death. Do you see wrath in this? I see wrath in ALL the seals.
4. Why does no one deal with what follows the last rider. Hell. Why does no one ask “why isn’t Paradise or Heaven following death?” Perhaps its because all who die are going to … Hell? Else, why is Hell following and swallowing up all the dead? Why not Heaven? Why not heaven AND hell?
5. Jesus said He will keep His people FROM the hour. My examination of the Greek word ek seems to suggest that its sort of an avoidance, to never experience, to be saved FROM in, not go through it, or be in it. But, it’s the same Greek word when dealing with the Uncountable Number from all nations and tribes and tongues. Ek. The English translation seems to give an impression that they literally come out of the Tribulation, which makes no sense because an ‘uncountable number” cannot come out of 6 billion. But the Greek seems to suggest that the number never even experiences the Tribulation. Saved FROM, not OUT OF.

I totally disagree with Post Tribbers. That is an insult to God, a misrepresentation of His Character, even spits on the testimony of Abraham, Job, and the deliverance of Noah and Lot.

I never had an issue with Mid-Tribbers.

I do not agree with Pre-Tribbers because they are younger than me, and they default to the “last trumpet” because they don’t take the time to look at Jewish or Roman culture and the military cries (last trump), and they separate wrath from the Tribulation period.

But you sir, are neither Mid nor Pre-Wrather. You certainly are not that demonic Post-Tribbulation. I get that you are expressing your thoughts, not “absolute doctrinal facts”. But I’m wondering how you view this basic questions.

NON-ESSENTIALS

1. Do you know when the Pre-Wrath belief started? What I have read, several years back, was that it is less than 20 years old. I had heard of Pre, Mid and Post Tribulation believers since my early childhood, but never did I hear about Pre-Wrath until more recently. I am now in my mid-40s. New doesn’t always mean wrong, but, this raises a measure of concern.
2. What about the writings of men like Ieranues, Cyprian, and Ephriam, all of whom taught a Pre-Tribulation Rapture? Do you think their writings in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Centuries are valid, and that the belief resurfaced in the 1600s through people like William Cunninghame, Joseph Mede and others (when the Bible was written in English and men could read for themselves)? I know this did not start with John Darby because Darbys grandparents weren’t even born.
3. Do you believe that our belief on the Rapture is essential to Salvation? For instance, do you see Hebrews 3 & 4 as a warning to the Post-Tribulation people, and unbelievers, who refuse to believe in the deliverance of God, just as Israel refused to believe Joshua and Caleb and were not allowed into the Promised Land (below)? The author of Hebrews 3&4 seem to be warning us not to be of that same unbelief, denying the delivering messages of Joshua and Caleb, or else we also will be left out of the Promised Land (above)? The warning seems very clear. Do not fall into the unbelief of rejecting Gods deliverance, or that unbelief will turn out to be our liter rejection, just as it literally caused Israel to be left out.

Israel is your example.
Israel is your example.
Israel is your example.

That’s in my head over and over again. And so I consider the goodness AND the severity of God, not His goodness only.

What do you think this all means?

and we respond…

Blessings and thank you for your e mail

Our view pre dates Pre Wrath in that Jacob Prasch, like various others, believed the rapture is between 6th & 7th seals etc. prior to the Pre Wrath position  being crystallized by the books of Marvin Rosenthal and Robert Van Kampen.  Our position is documented and explained at length in the Book “Harpazo” (available on Amazon, Kendal, from Moriel etc.). It is nothing more than what was later called Pre Wrath that in common with Pre Trib holds that The Holy Spirit is the Restrainer of 2 Thessalonians chapter 2, and certain other more minor differences to do with the timing of the ministry on the Two Witnesses in Revelation  chapter 11. Intra Seal is a version of Pre Wrath and Pre Wrath has the same primary elements as Intra Seal. The two positions are  in essence not only very  similar or more accurately two variations of the same fundamental position although the Pneumatological differences are marked.

Moriel and Jacob Prasch reject the concept new or further doctrinal revelation (Revelation 22:18). The scripture simply teaches an ever clearer understanding however off what is already revealed in God’s Word concerning The Last days (Daniel 12: 4), which is the very meaning off the Greek term ‘Apocalypsis’.

We cannot dialogue by e mail about issues already elaborated on which are again published and explored in depth in ‘Harpazo’.

The Holy Spirit is a Divine Person. He convicts of sin through the mechanism of conscience but He is not our conscience. One is a person, the other is not. With respect, as you have stated it, your position is very seriously wrong.  

When conscience becomes dysfunctional, the Greek text of the New Testament describes this with a term that we normally translate as the conscience becoming “seared”; a phenomena that increases in the last days (1 Timothy 4:2). This is not the same thing as  The Holy Spirit ceasing to restrain.

Sincerely,

Moriel/ JJP